1. sheesania says:

    I’m glad to see this “gray” trend because I’m happy about the underlying general movement towards realism. Creators nowadays are trying to portray realistic characters and situations, rather than trying to present models of good or bad like you find more often in earlier entertainment. Because of how these creators view the world, this desire for realism often manifests itself in antiheroes, morally tricky situations, and other “gray” elements. But ultimately I think the underlying trend is not “grayness” but realism.

    George R. R. Martin and Brandon Sanderson famously have different approaches to narrative in their fantasy novels – Martin is well known for his “gritty” stories full of ruthlessness, evil, violence, &c (though I can’t really speak for them since I haven’t read any of his work), while Sanderson consistently writes characters that are good at heart even if he puts them in difficult situations where they make morally questionable choices. But I think they are both realistic writers at heart. Sanderson just sees the world differently and has a different idea of what’s realistic than what Martin does. Sanderson thinks people are intrinsically good, thus when he tries to write realistically he writes good character. Martin, I think, sees human nature differently and thus writes differently when he wants to be realistic.

    However, like I said, I haven’t read A Song of Ice and Fire or any other works of Martin’s, while I have read Sanderson extensively and know his personality and worldview pretty well. I would be interested to hear about this connection between realism and grayness from others who can make more informed comparisons.

    • I just tested the new comments system by upvoting your comment. 🙂

      From what I’ve read, Sanderson easily > Martin. Sanderson may be a Mormon, but that Christianity-fanfiction faith still maintains some of the original respect for a world that was created good and corrupted by sin (for a time). By contrast, Martin’s apparent indulgent nihilism is grating, and I find it amusing and also irritating when people try to defend this as somehow “realistic” or even as closely aligned with a biblical view of reality.

      I like to quote C.S. Lewis’s demon Screwtape on how demons like to redefine “reality” so that they, of course, can redefine actual reality as escapism:

      The general rule which we have now pretty well established among them is that in all experiences which can make them happier or better only the physical facts are “Real” while the spiritual elements are “subjective”; in all experiences which can discourage or corrupt them the spiritual elements are the main reality and to ignore them is to be an escapist.

      Thus in birth the blood and pain are “real”, the rejoicing a mere subjective point of view; in death, the terror and ugliness reveal what death “really means”. The hatefulness of a hated person is “real” — in hatred you see men as they are, you are disillusioned; but the loveliness of a loved person is merely a subjective haze concealing a “real” core of sexual appetite or economic association. Wars and poverty are “really” horrible; peace and plenty are mere physical facts about which men happen to have certain sentiments. The creatures are always accusing one another of wanting “to eat the cake and have it”; but thanks to our labours they are more often in the predicament of paying for the cake and not eating it.

      Your patient, properly handled, will have no difficulty in regarding his emotion at the sight of human entrails as a revelation of Reality and his emotion at the sight of happy children or fair weather as mere sentiment.

      — quoted in Screwtape on Redefining ‘Realism’

      • sheesania says:

        Oh, I agree; I think Sanderson’s worldview is far closer to reality than what I’ve seen of Martin’s. (Though there are certainly elements of Sanderson’s that I disagree with – for instance, the overemphasis on human power and agency in his stories.) My main point is that both authors are _trying_ to be realistic. They may not succeed, but they are trying. Thus, even though their works are quite different, both authors ultimately believe that realism is a primary goal in fiction. Many earlier authors had different goals.

        BTW, love the Screwtape quote!

    • Zac Totah says:

      Good point about realism being the true driving force, Sheesania. I agree with that. Realism comes up so often in discussions like this, usually as a way to defend certain elements in the story that people would react against. For example, “I included the sex scene because it’s *realistic* and we should be as true to reality as possible.” Which is a lame excuse IMHO. An interesting irony at work in all this is the apparent disregard for realism when it comes to plot and storytelling. Realism is sacrificed for the sake of the chase, the action, the adrenaline-pumping scene…no matter how stupidly unrealistic it actually is. But I’m going to stop there before I go on a mini-rant. 😉

      • sheesania says:

        Good point that there’s a double standard of realism here. Unrealistic plots are okay, but unrealistic characters? No way! Unrealistic settings can go either way – there’s always somebody who will complain, but many will give the creator a pass if the setting is interesting enough.

        You also bring up the important question of _why_ realism is desirable in the first place. Do we want realism for realism’s sake? Then that sex scene is no problem. Or do we want realism so that our stories can be relevant to readers’ lives? In that case, the sex scene isn’t necessarily helpful. Or is realism desirable for a different reason entirely?

  2. I enjoy fiction of both major varieties you’ve identified here. I don’t mind “real” characters and stories, but I don’t expect every character and story to be “real.” Fiction is useful as both 1) a way of exploring and processing the world we all have to deal with, and 2) a way of visualizing the world as it could be. The former may enhance understanding, but the latter is what offers hope and motivation to excel. If we devote all our intellectual energy to realism and none to aspiration, I think we’ve lost something.
    While I don’t believe that consuming media that features morally gray hero characters is sinful, I would hate it if the proliferation of anti-heroes gave people the impression that actual paragons of goodness are non-existent, impossible, or unnecessary.

    • Zac Totah says:

      I agree that stories need a balance, that we shouldn’t sacrifice aspirations on the altar of realism. But I think those aspirations can spring from realism, the world as we wish it to be given form and meaning by the reality of what actually surrounds us. Look at Lord of the Rings, particularly the movies. At the end of Two Towers, Frodo is in despair, confronted by the reality of the pain and corruption of the world. Yet Sam steps in and offers a perspective of hope:

      Sam: It’s like in the great stories Mr. Frodo, the ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were, and sometimes you didn’t want to know the end because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end it’s only a passing thing this shadow, even darkness must pass. A new day will come, and when the sun shines it’ll shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you, that meant something even if you were too small to understand why. But I think Mr. Frodo, I do understand, I know now folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn’t. They kept going because they were holding on to something.

      Frodo: What are we holding onto, Sam?

      Sam: That there’s some good in the world, Mr. Frodo, and it’s worth fighting for.

  3. notleia says:

    It’s like you’re taunting me to post a research paper-length post on the history of simplistic moralism vs complexity in literature.
    In any case, I just want to remind people that “modern” in this case stretches back to the early 20th century, so if anybody posts a “kids these days” sort of comment, I’m going to wonder which rock you’ve been under for the extent of your life, because ain’t nobody here been alive in the Victorian age.
    But why does Christian culture cling so hard to the lingering shadows of Victorianism? I’m thinking about someone who authored a post a month or so ago, Frank Somebody, about the decline of the culture and yadda-yadda. What is it about Victorian culture that is supposed to be the apex of cultural-ness?

    • Of note: That was Frank Turk, and he was not arguing for a return to a particular culture. Instead he argued (correctly, I believe) that the “good art must show sex scenes to be Good Art” is all stuff and nonsense, failing even secular expectations for Good Art. In that piece, the defense of biblical standards and holiness for Christ’s people was actually secondary.

      Reference: Sex Scenes Clash with the Art of Jessica Jones

      • notleia says:

        Yeah, that’s the one, but I have a hard time thinking it’s a secondary point when his primary point is “no nudity (ugh kids these days).” He doesn’t talk about how nudity might be used skillfully in a visual medium, just [insert cultural prudery inherited from the Victorians]. He even helpfully points to the late 19th century as the time when things started going to pot, which pinpoints the supposed cultural high-watermark as the Victorian culture.
        But it’s just a specific of a larger trend I’ve noticed from the Grumpy Old White Man Internet, which my dad forwards to me on occasion. But why the Victorians?

  4. ionaofavalon says:

    I just watched the 1980’s Beauty and the Beast TV show (some episodes written by George R.R. Martin) and was surprised by the hero, Vincent. In this series, the beast, Vincent, can sense when beauty, Assistant DA Catherine is in danger and immediately runs to her rescue. A very old-style heroic thing to do, he also loves poetry and chivalry, so in all a very old fashioned fellow, but on at least three occasions he kills to defend himself and Catherine. Now these are bad dudes, who have hurt, threatened to hurt, or killed people in the past, so was he right to kill them? Some would say, they killed so their lives were forfeit to the law, so yes, but does that make it OK? That was the real problem I had with the show.

    • notleia says:

      It might be a point of conflict for a lawyer, who is invested in an organized system of due process and not in the vigilante system. But that doesn’t mean the writers handled it well.

  5. Lisa says:

    Much of our entertainment today is “unrealistic”, if you are talking about plot lines and such. Police dramas are notorious for this. I mean, what forensic examiner runs around with the detectives and helps to solve cases like Temp Brennan does on Bones? How many police agencies can get DNA and other forensic results a mere hours later than when they requested them? So there is unrealism in terms of plot, because to show how things actually work would be boring, wouldn’t it? Well, not necessarily, I do find that there are shows that portray a more realistic aspect of police work, especially in ones coming from the BBC. And I think these types of shows tend to be more “realistic” character-wise as well. I mean give me Jane Tennison from Prime Suspect over Temp Brennan any day! Personally, I like a more realistic take on characters. I do agree, however, that this can go too far in the wrong direction. I think GRR Martin errs on this, as does, for example, the Gotham series. I think the latest Batman movies tend to skirt too far into that wrong direction as well. I don’t want to read/watch something that makes me depressed because everything is just so bleak. But that’s my opinion. Plenty of people must disagree with me, if the ratings are anything to go by!

  6. Cameron says:

    This is such an important topic to write about, and I’m glad you did.

    As I was thinking about this, I realized that the Bible does both with its characters. It calls David a “man after [God’s] own heart,” but passages like the account with Bathsheba show us that he certainly had some dirt under his fingernails. The same to be said of Abraham, who is honored as an example of faith in passages like Hebrews 11, and yet he even demonstrated weak faith sometimes (i.e. when he had a child by Hagar).

    Perhaps the proper balance, then, is to make your protagonist heroic; someone worth emulating, but also beset with weaknesses. Not just minor ones, but real struggles. This will be even more effective in inspiring your audiences to strive for your ideals, because they will feel like a normal person like them can achieve them.

    Cameron

  7. Autumn Grayson says:

    There are a lot of antihero characters that I never really saw as gray.  With Han Solo, for instance, we start off with a char that is selfish, but learns to value more than money and his friend Chewie.  That makes it feel like the author is trying to make a point that being self serving is a bad thing and that we will be much better off if we care about others.  That doesn’t sound morally gray to me.  I kind of see antiheroes as people that often start off as problematic but learn and grow throughout the story, so often enough I think their character shows us that we can be better in spite of our flaws.

    In general, though, I think it is good to have a bit of ‘gray’ in a story as long as the whole story is not trying to prove something like morals don’t matter.  Like you said, gray aspects make us think.  I know it helps me think through what choices I can make, as well as potential consequences, that way I can hopefully make the right choices rather than ‘gray’ ones.  

    One thing that gets me sometimes, though, is that people sometimes talk about gray things, but they use them to say things like ‘there’s no such thing as right and wrong’, and try to prove their point through unrealistic scenarios.  Such scenarios have their place sometimes, but they remind me of a scene in Fate Zero where the Holy Grail is trying to trick the main character, an assassin named Kiritsugu.  The Grail was trying to tell Kiritsugu that he always killed the few to save the many, and even painted it as if it was necessary for Kiritsugu to kill ALL of the few in order to accomplish his goals.  So the Grail showed him a scenario where the last of humanity’s survivors were split onto two boats, one with 500 people, and one with 400.  Both boats started sinking at the same time, and the Grail asked which boat Kiritsugu would try to save.  Kiritsugu said the one with 500 people.  And the Grail said ‘What if the people in the boat of 400 tried to stop you?’ and showed Kiritsugu killing everyone on the boat of 400 so that he could go save the group of 500.

    Thinking about the scenario, I realized that although there was some truth to what the Grail was saying, it was still spouting off a lot of nonsense in order to achieve its wretched goals.  Kiritsugu is such a skilled assassin that he would not have had to hunt down and kill all the 400 in order to escape them.  In fact, he may not have had to kill anyone at all.

    Like you said, we have to use discernment when we watch shows that way we don’t get sucked into the nonsense that sometimes surrounds gray areas.

What do you think?